Loopy: Masterpiece Edition - the journey begins

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  • @Michael may I suggest stacks as the Ableton column name. I was thinking about old jukeboxes and the stack of vinyl records from which the selection was made.

    Love Loopy, looking forward to the Masterpiece edition.

  • Hmm, stacks is a good name, @PFAllen2. Annoying 'cos I've already used that name for another new feature, which has similar behaviour but within a track, which I'll introduce this week. Actually, that might be okay - there could be track stacks, and group stacks.

  • Thanks @hmtx yeah I was thinking if it auto started on sound detection as well as a few other ideas....

  • @michael perhaps the original 'stacks' could be called track layers or track overdubs.

  • I am absolutely thrilled to hear of the of the development of Loop Masterpiece Edition and pleased that your opening it to suggestions as having long term ambitions with looping; using mobius, ableton, bomes midi, i've had the best results in Loopy but never really been able to produce what I have had in mind.

    I am a live musician who is looking for the tools to produce jaw dropping solo performances where none of the sounds has been pre-produced and the audience find it hard to believe it has all been done live, I've been fortunate enough to play with Beardyman and Jamie Liddels setups during sound checks, aside from them being very expensive! I need my hands free to play instruments and use a number of mikes during performance, Loopy seems like the best hope.

    I have my suggestions for you to consider, I hope some of them have already made it into the beta, they are based on my experiences with Loopy HD and by some of the threads it looks like Loopy layout has already radically changed so I appreciate they may not be applicable.

    ** Undo function:

    The ability to step back not just the last recording but any track changes mutes etc, it's really embaressing when I have just done a recording live and towards the end a mistake or some feedback has creeped, everything goes wrong from that point onwards and undo should help out allot.

    ** Assign and audio input to a specific track -
    This can already be done through Audiobus but having the ability within Loopy and then also being able to do that by a Midi foot trigger action would be very valuable.

    ** Coloured tempo flash -
    Rather than the white blink a coloured one would be useful, say red on the bar and green in between as I am often looking at Loopy out the corner of my eye and find it hard to figure out where in the song I am especially when doing an intro and there is little beat happening.

    ** Merge tracks by midi action -
    Imagine the scenario of building up an intro with lots of small sounds varying when they are played live to give texture, I often fill the available tracks up and would like to keep say tracks 1+2+4 bounce them track 11 and tracks 1+2+3+5 bounced to track 12 and clear the build up tracks, this would be very useful helping to build up quieten down and keep continuity of the song being played

    ** Pre-route a track through IAA -
    Once again Audiobus can in effect do this but I have been having difficulties say recording on track 1 as routing it through Audiobus back to track1 and putting it on another other track duplicates the sound, IAA would allow a better use of effects within ios.

    ** Stack actions through midi triggers -
    This is the one I am really hoping for, the ability to perform a number of sequential different actions on various tracks from one click of a foot pedal, it is practically essential for what I have in mind, I really hope that this is able to be done.
    I personally would be really pleased if this was even set of actions was sequential, what I mean by that is first press of a midi trigger performs a set of actions, second press of the same midi trigger performed a different set of actions and so on.
    Even being able to load a new complete new set of midi triggers through the single click of a midi trigger would be highly useful.

    ** Load and save session templates -
    As you can see, I spend a lot of time wishing I could do more with midi triggers and want to be able to route audio, being able to load up a session which is blank of any audio but contains preconfigured midi assignments and track routing is essential for moving onto the next song when live.

    ** Pitch shifting a track -
    This would be a huge wow if it was possible to do, so often live looping is very linear, shifting the pitch would allow the ability to break that, I have had some success routing through other apps but its clunky and difficult.
    If it is possible, in my ideal world the pitch shift would be driven by an arpeggiator style matrix for which you could also preassign various patterns for, imagine playing a bass line into a track and being able to take the same notes played in practically a different arrangement, fantastic.

    ** Slice and replay a track -
    Very similar to the pitch shifting idea, imagine being able to say play the first 25% of a track twice and followed by the area between 75% and 100% and then the area between 25% and 75% dynamically, it's a trick I often use in the studio, often randomly taking chunks and rearranging them to see how I can texture the song even further.
    If this was possible to do this live, it would be nice also be able to play the area between say 0% and 25% once and leave the other 75% of the track blank, that would save a lot of furiously tapping mute every time I wanted to just play a small part of a track.

    Those are all the idea's I have had, for which I have long time considered building an application myself, but I am not a developer really, happy to share them as I am very impressed with the motives behind masterpiece edition.
    Though I am an ISEB qualified software tester, so in case you need some extra testing resource I can spare the time.

  • Request : Canon sequencing ... (Also playing in the round)

    This may seem a niche request , but a few folks have been mentioning the idea of sequencing tracks/groups for performance , so this might be a proof of concept for wider uses/functionality ..

    I've been learning Pachabel's Cannon in D , which amazingly works by each of 3 new parts coming in two bars after the previous ,but all playing the same original part ,(over a repeating bass).
    So it occurred to me if Loopy could be programmed to start recording the first 32 bar part, a second, duplicated part starts playing 2 bars later , then a third, duplicated part starts playing 2 bars later and then a fourth ....?!

    Would be great for canons and rounds , with the two functions of offset sequencing , and realtime duplication of recording tracks both useful per se in a " Masterpiece" edition .

  • Hey Michael,

    First off – thank you so much for the hard work you've put into this app. It has made looping accessible without additional dedicated hardware and honestly (though I've searched) there is no "dedicated" hardware that even comes close. I love the versatility, the number of tracks, and the epic simplicity and usability (hell yes!). I have so much confidence in Loopy Masterpiece and I am excited to see pan out (hah pun). I am happy to hear that you're keeping usability (especially in a live context) at the forefront.

    If I am understanding correctly from the previous comments – I love the idea of being able to maintain edibility of "combined tracks". This way even if they are merged for the sake of space, they would still be accessible (a non-destructive merge).

    ** One Quick Question ** Do you plan on integrating vocal effects (or other types) into Loopy Masterpiece? I am trying to find the best solutions for live vocal effects and have been narrowing my options (either using ipad effects with audiobus or getting a dedicated unit such as the Voicelive Touch 2). I can see how how adding effects within loopy might be too cumbersome, but can also see value-add.

    Just was curious - as I was about to make my effects processor decision, then I saw Loopy Masterpiece Edition and slowed my roll.

    Loopy and Audiobus are the best two things to happen to iOS music. You should be proud.

    Best,
    -Ryan-

  • edited November 2014

    The loop slicing idea is interesting!

    How about a mode where you can determine the size of the slices in musical divisions (1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 etc) and then arrange them as you like. Better yet, have a random mode that re-arranges them.

    I like to do this manually in Cubase on an old PC (perhaps similar to @Beeski) and then import the results into loopy or an iOS sampler, but it would be much more fun on the fly in loopy.

  • I would very much like to see a 'Frippertronic' mode where a continuously recorded, delayed signal is fed back to the input at up to 100%, but generally less. I've got more than 30 years history doing this (and designed some hardware for it, Lexicon PCM42, in years past). It's productive of evolving loops (tempo-locked or no) in a way that straight phrase recording is not. Reference the work of David Torn and Steve Morse (both old clients of mine) for examples. I recognize this is somewhat divergent from the philosophy of Loopy to date, the plans I've seen so far for the Masterpiece Edition, and almost all of the 'looping' hardware and software today. Love to discuss it anytime. I think it would add a new dimension to your platform. Thanks.

  • edited November 2014

    ^
    Bingo! Michael - please take Gary (Hall?) up on this offer!

  • edited November 2014

    Gary and Ring... Have you tinkered with "decay" when you overdub a track? You'll be pleasantly surprised. (or aggravated since it's been a subtle little part of Loopy since 2013!)

    ...unless I just don't understand what you mean by " a continuously recorded, delayed signal is fed back to the input"

    and wow Gary, thanks for posting here. No doubt you are also familiar with Phil Keaggy, my first "looping" inspiration and the reason I first dove into LoopyHD. I'm pretty excited to hear you are interested in Loopy's improvement and success.

  • Wow. I really love the suggestions people are making.

    I am familiar with the "decay" feature in Loopy HD... but all it does is simple gain reduction.

    What I am looking for is what the old Digitech PDS8000 did if you left the record feature open... with each loop it re-recorded the old loop PLUS the tiny bit of noise from the now open input. Even if you turned off your instrument or put your guitar down, there was a new 12-bit recording of the old loop and the new noise... over and over... the longer you left it open... the more tasty the degeneration became.

    I am probably one of 2 people in the world who have been looking for a new looper that can recreate that effect. I lost my PDS8000 in the 90's and the other person's PDS8000 is all but dead now. It makes sense that most companies would try to engineer this "feature" out of the pedal... but it was one of my favorite parts of the PDS8000.

    It would be so nice if you could make a set of loops and then be able to go into a settings panel to add varies degeneration or other types of modulation. Be able to slow down or speed up individual loops regardless of the clock settings.

  • @stjambience said:

    @michael perhaps the original 'stacks' could be called track layers or track overdubs.

    Hey, that's a good idea!

  • Thanks, @Beeski!

    Some responses:

    ** Undo function:

    The ability to step back not just the last recording but any track changes mutes etc, it's really embaressing when I have just done a recording live and towards the end a mistake or some feedback has creeped, everything goes wrong from that point onwards and undo should help out allot.

    Yep, sorted.

    ** Assign and audio input to a specific track -
    This can already be done through Audiobus but having the ability within Loopy and then also being able to do that by a Midi foot trigger action would be very valuable.

    I'm gonna do a video talking about this, cos I've had some difficulties.

    ** Coloured tempo flash -
    Rather than the white blink a coloured one would be useful, say red on the bar and green in between as I am often looking at Loopy out the corner of my eye and find it hard to figure out where in the song I am especially when doing an intro and there is little beat happening.

    Mm, interesting, okay.

    ** Merge tracks by midi action -
    Imagine the scenario of building up an intro with lots of small sounds varying when they are played live to give texture, I often fill the available tracks up and would like to keep say tracks 1+2+4 bounce them track 11 and tracks 1+2+3+5 bounced to track 12 and clear the build up tracks, this would be very useful helping to build up quieten down and keep continuity of the song being played

    Yeah, I think I'll be doing this one

    ** Pre-route a track through IAA -
    Once again Audiobus can in effect do this but I have been having difficulties say recording on track 1 as routing it through Audiobus back to track1 and putting it on another other track duplicates the sound, IAA would allow a better use of effects within ios.

    Agreed =)

    I could do some smarter stuff with Audiobus, too.

    ** Stack actions through midi triggers -
    This is the one I am really hoping for, the ability to perform a number of sequential different actions on various tracks from one click of a foot pedal, it is practically essential for what I have in mind, I really hope that this is able to be done.
    I personally would be really pleased if this was even set of actions was sequential, what I mean by that is first press of a midi trigger performs a set of actions, second press of the same midi trigger performed a different set of actions and so on.
    Even being able to load a new complete new set of midi triggers through the single click of a midi trigger would be highly useful.

    Just you wait for tomorrow's video =D

    ** Load and save session templates -
    As you can see, I spend a lot of time wishing I could do more with midi triggers and want to be able to route audio, being able to load up a session which is blank of any audio but contains preconfigured midi assignments and track routing is essential for moving onto the next song when live.

    Oh yeah, that's a given!

    ** Pitch shifting a track -
    This would be a huge wow if it was possible to do, so often live looping is very linear, shifting the pitch would allow the ability to break that, I have had some success routing through other apps but its clunky and difficult.
    If it is possible, in my ideal world the pitch shift would be driven by an arpeggiator style matrix for which you could also preassign various patterns for, imagine playing a bass line into a track and being able to take the same notes played in practically a different arrangement, fantastic.

    Whoa, that's hardcore! That's a really interesting idea. Chord changes! It'd have to be more than a pitch shift, cos you might want to change the scale and everything. Actually, "stub" over on Discchord mentioned something about flexible scales. I wonder if that's what he was talking about?

    ** Slice and replay a track -
    Very similar to the pitch shifting idea, imagine being able to say play the first 25% of a track twice and followed by the area between 75% and 100% and then the area between 25% and 75% dynamically, it's a trick I often use in the studio, often randomly taking chunks and rearranging them to see how I can texture the song even further.
    If this was possible to do this live, it would be nice also be able to play the area between say 0% and 25% once and leave the other 75% of the track blank, that would save a lot of furiously tapping mute every time I wanted to just play a small part of a track.

    Ah yeah, there've been a few mentions of this loop slicing idea - it seems to be quite popular!

  • @Wally said:

    Request : Canon sequencing ... (Also playing in the round)

    Hmm... Can delay do that? Set the delay to a bar?

  • Thanks @ryanclayton7!! That's very kind of you =)

    If I am understanding correctly from the previous comments – I love the idea of being able to maintain edibility of "combined tracks". This way even if they are merged for the sake of space, they would still be accessible (a non-destructive merge).

    Yeah, I'm thrilled about this idea too. I only realised yesterday that it could be applied to merging as well, so that merges are totally nondestructive. The only hard part is gonna be how to provide access to those segments afterwards. Gonna have to work on that one, probably with input from you lot =)

    ** One Quick Question ** Do you plan on integrating vocal effects (or other types) into Loopy Masterpiece? I am trying to find the best solutions for live vocal effects and have been narrowing my options (either using ipad effects with audiobus or getting a dedicated unit such as the Voicelive Touch 2). I can see how how adding effects within loopy might be too cumbersome, but can also see value-add.

    I would like to - whether I can is another question.

    The thing is, IAA really doesn't lend itself to "non-destructive" processing (sends). It also doesn't lend itself to automation, as there's no convenient way to pull out live control information from the app. So I want to try to really pack Loopy with great audio processing.

    But really, I'm never going to do as good a job as other developers who specialise in this kind of thing, so Audiobus/IAA is really not going away, and I'm going to find a way to support that really nicely.

    Just was curious - as I was about to make my effects processor decision, then I saw Loopy Masterpiece Edition and slowed my roll.

    Hehe, cool - do be warned this is going to be a while yet though!

    Loopy and Audiobus are the best two things to happen to iOS music. You should be proud.

    Thank you so much!

  • @stjambience said:

    The loop slicing idea is interesting!

    How about a mode where you can determine the size of the slices in musical divisions (1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 etc) and then arrange them as you like. Better yet, have a random mode that re-arranges them.

    Yeah, I like this idea too

  • @CPRophy said:

    Wow. I really love the suggestions people are making.

    I am familiar with the "decay" feature in Loopy HD... but all it does is simple gain reduction.

    What I am looking for is what the old Digitech PDS8000 did if you left the record feature open... with each loop it re-recorded the old loop PLUS the tiny bit of noise from the now open input. Even if you turned off your instrument or put your guitar down, there was a new 12-bit recording of the old loop and the new noise... over and over... the longer you left it open... the more tasty the degeneration became.

    I am probably one of 2 people in the world who have been looking for a new looper that can recreate that effect. I lost my PDS8000 in the 90's and the other person's PDS8000 is all but dead now. It makes sense that most companies would try to engineer this "feature" out of the pedal... but it was one of my favorite parts of the PDS8000.

    It would be so nice if you could make a set of loops and then be able to go into a settings panel to add varies degeneration or other types of modulation. Be able to slow down or speed up individual loops regardless of the clock settings.

    Yo...put me down for some track degeneration too! Ideally switchable per track.

    I agree there are some fantastic ideas...let alone the overall concept that Michael is presenting!

  • @GaryInThailand said (and @Ringleader +1'd):

    I would very much like to see a 'Frippertronic' mode where a continuously recorded, delayed signal is fed back to the input at up to 100%, but generally less.

    Interesting! Can you explain that a bit more? I didn't quite follow the initial description, I'm afraid! Where does the signal come from?

  • @CPRophy said:

    What I am looking for is what the old Digitech PDS8000 did if you left the record feature open... with each loop it re-recorded the old loop PLUS the tiny bit of noise from the now open input. Even if you turned off your instrument or put your guitar down, there was a new 12-bit recording of the old loop and the new noise... over and over... the longer you left it open... the more tasty the degeneration became.

    Sweet! This is awesome!

  • Good times now and ahead!

    Will my iPad explode if half of these ideas are jammed into 1 app?

  • @stjambience said:

    Will my iPad explode if half of these ideas are jammed into 1 app?

    No, but my brain will =)

  • @Michael said:

    @stjambience said:

    Will my iPad explode if half of these ideas are jammed into 1 app?

    No, but my brain will =)

    Well, you know, take care!

  • Canon sequencing ,
    I should have explained better that the "realtime duplication of tracks" was for having separate outputs for different processing of the parts,
    In my example for some parts to be fed to octave harmonisers.

    There would need to be three delay lines each capable of holding 32 bars ,the first set to repeat at bar3, the second after bar5,the third after bar7 , I dont know if this is possible for standard delays , but was assuming the paradigm of looping + auto sequencing of tracks would be ideally suited to Masterpiece edition .

    I now realise auto duplication isn't even necessary as one input could be routed to four tracks all recording simultaneously , so it would be the issue of playback of the last three being sequenced to start after 2/4/6 bars respectively .

    As I said it's a proof of concept suggestion really ,but I envisaged all the seperate functionalities to make this possible being implemented anyway ( I'm remembering requests for autosequencing of tracks/groups from the verse/chorus people) , I'm just pointing out if A could be fixed to B here with a 90 degree twist (metaphorically) , maybe it could be made to do this as well and could be additional functionality used more widely than my one example.

  • edited November 2014

    @Michael said:

    @GaryInThailand said (and @Ringleader +1'd):

    I would very much like to see a 'Frippertronic' mode where a continuously recorded, delayed signal is fed back to the input at up to 100%, but generally less.

    Interesting! Can you explain that a bit more? I didn't quite follow the initial description, I'm afraid! Where does the signal come from?

    David Torn does things with loops that I find very interesting and would love to be able to do, yet I cannot figure out what is going on. Since Gary designed the gear that he uses (Lexicon PCM42), he would be the one to explain. But moreso, I just think a discussion between you and him would be pretty cool. :)

  • edited November 2014

    Congratulations.I am really very happy to hear that.

  • The cannon thing should be doable via duplication and a delay. Sounds like the new app will have delays and discreet outs so you're set.

    One sort of related feature I'd love to see is snapping with track rotation/offset. Sometimes you want it nice and free like is to sort out a problem. Sometimes though, I want to try fixed rhythmic offsets (everything a 1/4 later) and, crucially, I want to put it back to the exact 12 o'clock position afterward.

  • Yeah, that could be cool. How do we distinguish between those two intentions though!

  • Can we define terms : Does @syrupcore (& @Michael) mean a delay as in a delay line fx type thing ...thing....thing....thing .?(2 bars delay @55bpm x3?)
    I was assuming there would be automatable sequencing of tracks in Masterpiece,( as has been requested by others for LoopyHD) , so the "delay" would be programmable in the sequencing of the playback of the track , as an extension to how record is already autosequenceable in LoopyHd . So sequenceable "delay" of playback of track is where I'm coming from , and assuming it would have far wider use than just canons .

  • edited November 2014

    One other very nice thing would be to be able to scratch the loops like in scratch disc... Maybe there could be a toggle for free/quantize or snap/scratch mode?
    And I don't know if I'm in a minority to want to use it on the phone, so I really hope it will be a universal app too!

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